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#1 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-22 00:20:28

Era wrote:

mutntdevle: fwiw, as I had never played mafia before investigating you wasn't really a play on your previous behaviour, but rather that I sinply though your line of "I'll make sure you don't regret keeping me alive or so" was kind of suspicious //ee.failforums.me/img/smilies/big_smile

orherwise didn't really know whom to investigat, kind of funny that I was so effective in my investigations this game.

That’s what made it worse! I couldn’t even wholeheartedly make the argument that you were scum wanting to get rid of me as soon as possible because it was sooo obvious that you were new to the game. Literally the only thing that nearly kept me alive was the flagbearer and sentinel claims because there was literally no logical argument we could make against it 😢


Also, if I were to host a game there’d definitely be very little if any flavour. Not that I could live up to Mini’s efforts anyway //ee.failforums.me/img/smilies/tongue

#2 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-21 19:00:40

Minimania wrote:

I was too worried about the power of the Oppressor, I overcompensated in favor of town.

I think the main flaw with this approach is that we didn't have a night kill. Even if I could use my ability on day 2, the lack of a goon meant that overall we were less powerful than the classic 3 vanilla mafia members with 1 night kill between them. I think at the very least we needed an investigative ability to gather information and potentially influence our oppressor pools. Besides that, we just got unlucky that I was the one who was given the important role. Almost anyone else in my position would have lived much longer.

Minimania wrote:

I feel Semi-open setups are king. The benefit of making the game a little more mysterious, allowing for speculation (like the speculation around there possibly being a Voodoo or an Arsonist) cannot be understated.

I agree. Semi-open is definitely my favourite type of setup. Too closed means that players are just guessing in the dark about what's going on and completely open means that people have to work within very specific rules. Though, I think you were a little too restrictive with the roles that were on offer in this semi-open setup. The *only* option I had was to accuse Era of lying because there were literally 0 roles which could have possibly messed with his investigation results. There is absolutely 0 logic to someone randomly falsely accusing someone like that, so it was always an impossible sell. The town actually having a sentinel was just the nail in the coffin. Even if you didn't have a role capable of redirecting people or falsifying investigation results, by explicitly confirming no such roles exist it severely limited our options.

Additionally, you had too few roles for mafia. Mafia needed a lot more 'possible' roles that were variants of town roles. Almost all of the town could 100% prove they are town just by proving their night abilities are real. Each time those town roles would claim, the only thing that stops them from being confirmed as town is if someone counterclaims. All that achieves is a 50% chance of killing the actual town role first but inevitably sacrificing the false counter-claimer in the process. The neutral roles will never sacrifice themselves like that and the mafia don't have enough members to keep doing that either. So the number of confirmed town players would just keep increasing until the game could be solved through process of elimination. Ironically, the only way for the scum factions to counter that would be if they were able to collectively kill more people per night. The only way the town would ever have lost this game is if nobody ever claimed.

That said, I did have a lot of fun playing. Fighting for your life immediately is much more thrilling, and of all the ways to lose, I'm 100% glad it wasn't through a slow and drawn-out process of elimination. Norwee is also a very worthy opponent and it is genuinely impressive how much influence they had over the situation despite effectively not being able to vote. It was also really nice to play with a whole bunch of new people who take the game seriously but not so seriously that it stops being fun

Norwee wrote:

If Mutant is scum then this marks the second game where they as scum say: "I’m going to post less due to busy but dw i’ll still get in the walls y’all know and love wink wink //ee.failforums.me/img/smilies/wink))kr"

I have to say that this comment did bother me a little. I didn't say anything during the game because there was no way of addressing it without people analysing it. I get that you said it as part of your building a case to have me lynched but I would NEVER use irl circumstances as a tool for manipulation and no self-respecting player of mafia would either. I planned on opening the game with that statement regardless of my alignment. Although I tend to enjoy playing as mafia more than town, I was hoping to have a chill game and I was very uncomfortable with just how active I was forced to be in this game. I would have been much less active if it wasn't for the amount of pressure I felt to keep fighting knowing that the consequences of if I didn't was letting my entire team down who literally lost the game if I died.

There was definitely ups and downs for me this game in terms of the ways in which I was and was not enjoying it. I might scuttle off back into retirement because this game has made me realise that it's unfair for me to keep playing whilst not wanting to put as much effort in - the hand you are dealt in terms of what role card you get and what actions other people take is uncaring towards such a desire. So I'm not certain that playing mafia works for me anymore. That said, it has reawakened in me my passion for setup design and hosting. But idk if there's a market for that or if this game was just a one-off - I guess it entirely depends on if the new people decide to stick around. Though, the few ideas I've had are flexible in terms of how many people can join so if I were to host a game there'd be no real player count requirement. Regardless, I'd have to consider even that as, although hosting is less pressure in some ways, it is definitely more pressure in others too.

#3 Re: Game Discussion » The Sun rises again » 2022-07-19 11:33:51

Era wrote:

I am a bit confused on the acusations of toxicity. After the ammount of disapointment the EE community has had I expect a certain ammount of reservation.
But this simply isnt beeing toxic or not respectfull.

Reservation is fully expected. We are actively aware of the reputation that was gained for EE development and we have worked very hard to both show we are not like that and also actually not make the same mistakes. As others have pointed out, our lack of announcements of plans and not showing things off just to build false hype is part of that process.

But the way that people express themselves is what treads the line between toxic and respectful. The way that Norwee has expressed their reservations in this thread is 100% respectful. On the other hand, by Zumza's own admission they've not actually asked any serious questions. So if they are not trying to genuinely understand the situation, it makes me wonder what their motivation is. Because right now it feels to me like it's just to throw sass, spread negativity, and make accusations based on assumptions. I don't think that Zumza has been actively toxic yet, but I'd not describe their conduct as respectful. That's why I have felt the need to address their comments because behaving disrespectfully can easily lead to toxicity.

In a similar way, there has been a contrast in the way that people have given feedback on some of the graphics we shared last year. Sometimes people would express a dislike for something and suggest improvements and we have made some changes to the things we've shown off based on those comments. But on the other hand, there were some users who were negative about absolutely everything we'd show. Without fail, every time, they would have something negative to say. I've even seen them completely ridiculing some of the stuff we'd shown in other EE discord servers. They'd never have something productive to say, just that what we had made was bad and sometimes those comments would even cross the line to make comments about the artist who had made them. The latter approach was completely toxic. Those sorts of players are largely no longer active in the community, either because they got bored and moved on, gotten banned for something they did later, or because they've stopped being toxic.

Era wrote:

I also wanted to add that adding a punctuation mark to a game name is not that nice, nobody will assume it is part of the name when reading it.

The exclamation mark right now is simply an easy way of signalling which version of the game people are talking about. When EE! becomes the dominant form of EE, the exclamation mark will likely no longer be necessary. The exclamation mark has actually always featured in EE's globe logo.


Our efforts to reduce toxicity in the community is exactly why Kiraninja's topic is so nice to see. As they have mentioned, Kiraninja had a reputation for being incredibly negative about previous versions of the game. Lots of people had their reservations but Kiraninja was one of the first to express them and they'd express them very vocally. The previous administration definitely generated toxicity - after all, if the person in charge is not respectful to others then why should there be any expectation that the community itself should be respectful? The endless drama either exhausted you to the point of leaving or you'd stick around long enough to join in with the toxicity. So this thread is really nice to see as reassurance that we are successfully repairing the damage done to the community and creating a more positive culture, as well as being able to see that community members can recover from that state of exhaustion/toxicity.

Zumza wrote:

It seems that you're alluding to me. A staff member insinuating that I am toxic or a jerk, is an absolute first.

I assure you that it is not directed at you specifically. There has been a lot of toxicity in the EE! discord over the past 2 years, which is what Satanya is alluding to. I'd like to think we've done a very good job of eliminating that toxicity because the discord server has since become a nicer place due to people either leaving, getting themselves banned, or changing their ways. But the way those toxic people would speak is very similar to the way you have expressed yourself in this thread - automatically assuming the worst and throwing around accusations based on those assumptions. Given the past administration, it is understandable that people will assume the worst. But that does not give them a free pass on being a jerk. If your questions are not genuine, and you have no real desire to understand the situation, then I do worry that you are headed down that path of being toxic.

#4 Re: Game Discussion » The Sun rises again » 2022-07-18 22:36:28

Zumza wrote:

One of the issues with EEU, might I remind the readers, was that the developers, surprisingly, weren't truly motivated with receiving just the amount of coins needed to wash their cloths in which they were sweating in while coding, as remuneration.

The EE! developers are being paid professionally. It isn't free hobbyist labour with the occasional minor payout like EEU was. Money is being invested into the game before it makes a profit.

Zumza wrote:

50-100 pages? What is it 50 or 100? Is it 75?

It started out at around 60 but has since expanded to around 100. The specific numbers are kinda irrelevant. Satanya's point was that there is a plan and it is a detailed one.

I fully support Norwee's perspective. While some people are naturally excited by the things we have said, it is entirely reasonable to be sceptical and withhold any excitement until we start showing off the game more (which as I say, more than likely won't happen until closer to release). I definitely would not be as excited as I am about EE! if I was not in the privileged position of knowing the behind-the-scenes progress. However, I do not support deliberate attempts to ruin other people's excitement, which is seemingly what you are trying to do in this thread Zumza. Although we don't intend on making big announcements about plans throughout most of the development process, we have always welcomed questions. Satanya is very active in answering a whole range of questions in the EE! discord, which N1KF helpfully documents in her hints and leaks thread. But right now, the way that you are asking your questions is not what I would consider respectful.

#5 Re: Game Discussion » The Sun rises again » 2022-07-18 20:45:28

Just because the monetisation is a low priority does not mean we don't have a plan for it. We also have very clear plans for both the development of the game and building a player base.

We do not like to share our plans often because they are very subjective to change and conditional on things going perfectly. All we'd be achieving otherwise is spreading misinformation about the final product because there is no way that everyone would be able to keep up with every bit of news.

Retaining the player base across the development time would have been a monumental task that would never have been successful. We'll hype people up when the game is near release and no sooner. For now, all we ask from the community is to be patient and respectful. Keeping people engaged with the community is not something we consider necessary at this time because we have full faith in the final product to speak for itself and draw players back in once it's ready. In the meantime, sticking around in the community is everyone's personal choice. But if the people that choose to stick around cannot be patient and respectful, then to be blunt, we don't want them sticking around.

In terms of development news, we are not simply waiting for the war to end to continue development. Progress is currently still being made but definitely at a slower rate than before the war started. Besides addressing hugely significant things such as the war, which not only severely limited development for a while but has also had a significantly irreversible emotional impact on much of our team, we do not plan to make posts every time development changes speed.

#6 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 21:55:15

ZeldaXD wrote:

then we're basically losing two days

The mafia isn't our only threat. There is guaranteed at least 1 third party that poses a genuine threat to us. Any days spent not resolving this situation (aka, just tomorrow) can be spent looking for the pestilence.

#7 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 21:51:27

Era wrote:

And honestly your claim that I just randomly picked a flagbearer for the town is fairly ridicilous.

I've never said that you picked me because you either thought/or knew I was a flagbearer. This is 100% a coincidence that's turned out in your favour.

#8 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 21:50:12

We can just lynch Onjit or Althea instead, neither of them are claiming to be important roles.

#9 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 21:49:19

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

!vote Mutant

Your constant vote switching isn't what I find sus about you, it's the fact that you don't seem to care about the possibility that this could end the game for you. Not once have you ever mentioned any fear over that possibility to the point where it kinda feels like that doesn't matter to you.

#10 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 21:44:51

I find it so incredibly hard to believe that we ever make it to day 4 without

A) One of us 4 dying.

B) Us gaining any other kind of information that can prove who is town.

#11 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 18:56:41

I'm gonna repeat myself here but this is yet another reminder that this entire situation is immediately resolved as soon as any of myself, era, onjit or althea dies. Anyone who thinks that a flagbearer claim is worth risking is inherently anti-town.

You're right, in the hypothetical where I am a mafia flagbearer, I'd 100% not put myself in the voting pool tomorrow. But that literally changes nothing. You'd just lynch me day 4 instead and althea day 5 - if someone hasn't night killed us already.

This whole idea of "we need to do this lynch now or by the time we lynch him it will be too late" is completely ludicrous.

#12 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 11:44:37

mutantdevle wrote:
Norwee wrote:

AND he is bulletproof.

It is the most basic level of kill protection. There are literally so many roles in the game that can bypass it.

Just to further emphasise my point here, I had a look through the roles and literally the only killing roles that can't touch me are the Serial Killer and the Goon. Every single other killing role would go straight through my protection.

#13 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 11:41:53

All of these claims are provable within a day. As soon as any of us 4 dies we will all know the truth. Literally the only reason we'd have to lynch me today is if we wanted to give Norwee the win. And as much as it sucks that Norwee is gonna die, we lose the game if they don't. Voting me right now is so anti-town that it's stressful. Besides Era and Onjit, I'm almost certain that the third mafia member will be on this wagon too. If I do get killed during the night, and honestly, I'm kinda hoping I do, then please blitz everyone who has voted for me since the sentinel claims on my behalf.

#14 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 11:35:32

N1KF wrote:

Norwee is trying to guilt trip me

And it's working

!vote mutantdevle

And here was me thinking we were friends //ee.failforums.me/img/smilies/sad

#15 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-14 11:34:16

Norwee wrote:

AND he is bulletproof.

It is the most basic level of kill protection. There are literally so many roles in the game that can bypass it.

And as I've said, I think it makes perfect sense to be bulletproof because it forces pressure onto lynching me. And once I do reach a state where everyone knows I'm town, if I get placed in the oppressor pool it limits the options from 3 down to 2.

Norwee wrote:

Minimania knows how to design a good and balanced setup.

You are assuming this setup is supposed to be balanced. Sentinels, flagbearers, mayor and realtor can all verifiably PROVE they are town. That is 4 potential innocent childs. On top of that, we have several powerful investigator roles and, with the exception of the cop, all of their results are guaranteed to be accurate. Meanwhile, the mafia's only real power is an oppressor and a goon, both of which they can lose. Most of the third parties are also quite weak until later in the game so it is only mafia + third party that poses a threat rather than either being a threat on their own.

The basic conclusion here is that this setup is very clearly designed to be fun and interesting rather than balanced.

#16 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 22:26:50

Norwee wrote:

Not limming allows the opressor to mess with the votes tommorow.

And if I am the oppressor just lynch me day 4? By that time we'd 100% know the truth.

Norwee wrote:

I'd probably be in it as an pointless option neutral with no wincon + two townies.

You can be a honourary townie <3

#18 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 22:17:56

Either way you look at it, we've already found two of the mafia. Either the mafia is me + Althea or Era + Onjit. All I'm asking is that you give me an opportunity to prove myself.

I mean think about it, if Althea and I are mafia then how long are we actually going to survive for? As soon as any of Onjit, Era or Althea die, we will immediately know the truth. At most, we'd live another 2 days and that's it.

There is literally no need to lynch me today when the facts are so provable.

#19 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 22:13:47

Norwee is going to do everything in their power to get me lynched today. They literally lose if they don't.

Onjit is 100% scum. They know if they lynch me now they've eliminated an entire faction. All they'd have to do then is find the pestilence and kill them.

#20 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 22:11:46

Y'all spent so much time saying how ridiculous it was that I could be the flagbearer and now that it suits your narrative you're finally willing to believe it.

#22 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 19:54:08

Voting out the exectutioner*

Also, to be fair, I did go into the night willing to vote norwee today since I did scum read them. But I fully agree that voting out an executioner who is willing to side with the town is a bad thing to do. It's just unfortunate that the executioner decided to 1v1 someone that we literally cannot let die.

#23 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 19:49:47

Norwee wrote:
Abiqi wrote:

Of course okay bulletproof flagbearer coroner does sound ridiculous, but everything is possible for the lols

If so, why would they assign mutantdevle as their execution target. Each night the executioner can change their target at will. And Mutant is one of the more competent players here so i doubt they would choose them as their priority execution lim.

Are we certain Era would know that? Also, as you've said, there is a distinct lack of roles which can mess with investigation results. Any claim was bound to be believed without question.

Are you joining Norwee in the act of completely misrepresenting my arguments? I have stated quite firmly that I would have no interest in voting out the execution if it weren't for the fact that they are trying to kill me and I have also said that lynching Norwee is not something I'm arguing for. I'm just as happy voting to skip the vote. It's entirely down to everyone else whether we lynch norwee or skip the vote.


Also, literally where is N1KF? She was so active yesterday and I'm still fairly confident she can clear everything up here. Though ngl I am starting to feel more and more hopeless.

#24 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 16:24:25

ZeldaXD wrote:

Do you have any reason for suspecting this or is it just because you claim to be bulletproof? For all we know, it could be because N1KF was jailed last night.

No, it's just speculation. There's definitely a range of explanations for a lack of any night kills. If I was the target of the night kill though, then I could see that as motivation behind why Era has made this claim against me. But again, just speculation there.

Norwee wrote:

Bulletproof Flagbearer Coroner is such an meme claim.

If by your own admission it is a meme claim, what possible motivation would I have for making it? You honestly think I'm just "having a laugh" here??

Also, I think my modifiers make sense tbh. I was thinking that the reason for it is that it forces people to get rid of me through voting, hence making the flagbearer status more significant. Marshmellow's flip makes me think that I am right in that logic as it is clear that everyone's modifiers are thematic and purposely chosen. Eg. one of yours is voting related when your objective is to lynch me.

#25 Re: Forum Games » Mafia 51 - Secret Weapon [TOWN + GLADIATOR + SURVIVOR WIN!!!] » 2022-07-13 11:50:02

2B55B5G TNG wrote:
mutantdevle wrote:

This comment was more about N1KF than Onjit. Though I suspect that N1KF is a sentinel, who can now reveal themselves to save me?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … nknown.png

Not just the vote itself, she also asked for my reads without ever questioning my alignment. That made me begin to suspect that she knew my alignment and hence why I said I was slightly town reading them. Their comment at the end of the day about how I had the most votes and that the vote could easily be swayed + then following that up with ensuring someone else instead of me got lynched just solidified that feeling.

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